Charles Eisenstein and Sayer Ji -- Discussion

[Music] okay Here I am Charles Eisenstein with say orgy again and I say again not because you've heard us before but because we've tried a few times now to record and something always went wrong joking we're joking that the Illuminati are interfering with us and it's Mercury retrograde yeah and and it's 5g and Vladimir Putin is in it on it too so spots yeah yeah so anyway we've got lots of excuses but here we are today Sayer is the founder and operator of green med info

which is one of the biggest alternative health websites and his new book is called regenerate and I kind of know more as a friend and somebody who I feel like you know like one of those people were where like you get together and you're almost tripping over yourselves because there's so much to talk about that's kind of how I experienced there so welcome to the conversation thanks for all the same here you came to my wedding and I really wanted to talk with you and it

was the same thing I was just like well I wish we could talk about these 20 things but I have to go hang out with our guests and get married so right this is our opportunity is our quality time yeah yeah and and yes so much we could talk about but maybe maybe well maybe I'll maybe we can start with because this is happening in beginning of March 2020 so they're coronavirus is on everybody's minds I wrote an essay and I didn't publish and I probably

won't publish about it um for one thing it felt like pitching a tent in a storm like anything I say is this going to get swept away in the hysteria and I kind of don't want to get crucified and also I don't know I felt that there's a little bit in it in me of kind of crusading against the crusade which is actually more of a crusade so I don't know I still might publish it or rewrite it or something but um I'm curious you know

say or you mean I have like this kind of bird's-eye view of that you're way more knowledgeable about disease and physiology and so forth so I'm really curious what you think about it I mean there's all these theories out there you know it's actually 5g or it's a genetically modified bio weapon or it's a hoax entirely or I mean and then there's the mainstream narrative and variants of it there's so much it can be really confusing yes so aside from like staying away from Corona beer

um what advice could you give her what's your take on it Wow well I loved what you said as far as pitching a tent in the storm and I've been in a similar place if I wasn't focused so much on other things that are really in a way from my own well-being you know the regenerate book and project was really about me trying to focus on something other than you know your your yearly plague that's being marketed as is going to kill us all because we've

seen this with so many previous examples of swine flu and bird flu and Ebola and Zika it's just amazing really and I'm not saying that there isn't a real threat but I do feel that I'm also not wanting to jump into the frying pan right now because I think that what you said in a conversation that we had the other day which I think everyone should be listening to this and focusing on this point is that there is a layer of reality if not a very

definition of reality word in a way mutually exclusive points of views or truths coexist and that sounds absurd and yet I don't really know any way to describe what's going on beyond affirming what you pointed out so I know that sounds abstract but I think that right now yes there's a potential that this corner virus was somehow anthropogenically manipulated in let's say a laboratory could be bioweapons maybe not maybe they were doing something aspirational like trying to save the world by producing some new vaccine against

the common cold virus very doubtful if you go to the CDC website you see that it is basically kornev virus before the patented form it's novel right according to them was just the common cold basically so we're in a situation now where we really don't know who to believe or what to believe but I'm very curious about what you've written so I would like to ask you a little bit about what you think and that we can maybe just dovetail off that yeah okay I suppose

I'll come out of the closet about it I'm what strikes me is that the most dangerous virus is the virus of fear that rides atop the corona virus and it's striking like even if there isn't a conspiracy to use this as a way to implement social controls and abridgement of civil liberties when when you are you know the how the saying saying when all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail or if you're really good with a hammer then you're always looking for

nails so here is a threat that finally the authorities know what to do about because they don't know what to do about and neither does the public know what to do about autoimmunity depression suicide opioid addiction alcoholism and so on which are killing orders of magnitude more people than the corona virus like they have no idea to do about these things the tidal wave of anxiety and depression for example an addiction so you know there's no state of emergency declared about this but now here comes

something that the technologies of control can actually do something about so finally we get to we get to here's a threat that we we can address with quarantines with vaccinations with controlling people's movements forced medical examinations travel bans etc etc like so so even if it wasn't a conspiracy that the authorities are like almost happy and I don't know I'm not saying that they are taking pleasure in people suffering at all but it's kind of validating and and as for the public it's kind of the

same thing here's a proxy for all of our nameless unspeakable fears and our our sense of being out of control and helpless if we focus all of those onto this thing that we can understand like this is something that the public mind can understand a disease caused by a pathogen that is a threat to us and and we have to win a war against this bad thing that's a basic mind form that everybody's comfortable with and so we know what to do and so it it

gets elevated in the public discourse so that that's essentially and and then I guess what else I was saying in the essay is as we take a step one after another step and you mentioned like Zika you know and all these other diseases like are we really wanting to go to a world where we no longer congregate in public because we're afraid to wear sports events are talking about banning you know like not having the Olympics you know like they're banning all these events I think

Switzerland or something banned or any public gathering of over a thousand people you know people are talking about having virtual meetings instead of real meetings you know conferences are being canceled um or you know I could see a world where it is unthinkable that you would go out to a bar or go out to a public place and actually interact with other people without wearing you know a hazmat suit or something like that is that really where we want to go and why is security and

safety so overriding lis important is life just to survive you know is there a balance to be struck between risk and and security in the name of fun of exploration of development so this is these are the things that I've been thinking about I love it this is absolutely essential because there is a bio political substrate you know to the surface narrative that has been unfortunately amplified virally around the world primarily through mainstream media but I think hybrid and alternative media is now joining in and

we have fine what is you know you know really an invisible threat right it's not that different from in the Middle Ages when demons used to plague people now there are reasons why those behaviors appeared to involve demons it could have been organized bred we now know there's sort of an explanation but you know there were very psycho somatic or psychogenic processes that play and they still are and so the meme that you're addressing of fear as a vector itself in a way of inexorable debility

and maybe even lethality is powerful because in those videos of the Chinese spraying their entire populations with military style you know biocidal agents how are they determining what is caused by immunotoxicity and suppression from the chemical and what is caused by one of Fabi trillions of viruses in the environment were exposed to daily it's absolutely absurd unless you run the PCR testing you know in real time to determine you know whether there is actually evidence of some type of viral overgrowth within a body and even

then you can't prove that it's caused anything all disease is multifactorial it's just rather absurd from the perspective of what you might call a new biology meaning post-2000 discovered the microbiome was invent horizon after which we had to acknowledge that there really is no other when it comes to germs because we're primarily of them if we look at the definition of what we are through the lens of how many protein coding genes we contain within the eukaryotic nucleus 99 fold more is contributed by viruses bacteria

fungi Hellmann's right so the absurdity you know of germ theory visa vie the discovery of the holo biomes which is what we essentially are which is a near infinite number of microorganisms somehow that we experience as ourselves you know it just it totally in a way enclosed or challenges this SIOP that I think we're both seeing run right now so it just stimulates so many thoughts and me as far as what we're actually experiencing right now but one thing that you really hit on which is

when we had the you know Patriot Act post 9/11 and it was endless war right terrorists are everywhere and we're gonna preemptively you know basically run illegal wars in places overseas that just happened to be on top of oil that we want this is transmogrified or sublimated into what we're presently seeing is the same SIOP because they can preempt sovereign states rights and invade any one soils under the auspices of saving their lives from a deadly threat that again is invisible they're doing it in Africa

with Ebola now we're seeing this sort of like a test in a way to see how far they can push it I thought they were going to contain it in China but it's definitely going global and here's the real challenge is that they would they're giving all these conspiracy theorists the fodder like I mean a fuel like in October was a 2019 they ran this massive hollywood-style event called event two two zero one John Hopkins the World Economic Forum and the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation

ran a fake pandemic that was scripted to kill 61 million people around the world implode the economy require military intervention and it was from a corn corn a virus infection you can't make this stuff up I mean everyone go google it go to an event to zero one so I'm not a conspiracy theorist I like to little facts together and connect the dots like you do but oh my lord we're really in it right now Charles uh-huh Wow so yeah a couple things to say about

that one one is yeah the the basic thought forms underneath the war on terror are very similar to the thought forms underneath the war on fill in the blank and especially if it's this global insidious thing that that you have to have special instruments to detect and it's kind of it can sneak in under any barrier you know it like there's no limit to the amount of control that's necessary to keep it out and just like terrorism it never goes away it's not like you defeat

Hitler and the war is over you know because terror is a concept how do you win a war against a concept you know it's a it's a strategy terrorism as a strategy how do you win a war against a strategy and in a similar vein infectious disease the possibility of it is always there so that's why I'm a little concerned that the measures that are being taken to prevent the spread of coronavirus will become permanent because the rationale for them will always be there yes yeah

yes okay so what happened was in mono states health emergency Powers Act that was drafted somewhere in Georgia that gave like a template for states to basically replicate like Alec you know just you know like a bill mill and what it did was it enabled States to call what is essentially a martial law effect into being in cases of there being some type of infectious disease and then it was I think 2009 went Bush wrote in executive orders making it a equivalent to being almost a

bioterrorist to be infected with a novel form of h1n1 and it's an interesting word novel it's like you think of a novel right it's it's fiction and it really refers to a story being being being written that it's absolutely not based on evidence it's really more like theater you know so I just would say that what we're seeing here is the state laying claim is sort of like through new mythology on the bodies of everyone that you know can be infected by some again invisible agent

so it's a form of um I think that Rheda clarin the human body is chattel you know the state is the owner so that's kind of what I'm seeing here but you know I'd like your opinion yeah yeah I mean you could certainly see it that way you know it's it's what rights are circumvented or declared null and void because there's a war on this happens in war too like civil liberties are abridged during a war because the important thing is the war effort to defeat

the enemy and then after we've done that then we can talk about civil liberties so the same thing like okay yes yes freedom of association yes yes freedom of the press you know freedom of expression etc etc but right now there's something more important so the authorities that would like to maintain control like it if there's something that comes along even if they didn't nation' ate it themselves and created themselves they naturally gravitate toward any narrative that validates the abridgement of civil liberties and personal freedoms

because it gives them license to to do what they're good at in a way and they're doing it with all good intentions I think or a lot more good intentions than conspiracy theories theorists ascribe to them yeah it's protect us you know yeah and but here's one more thing I noticed about the similarity between um okay and before you even say this like I could be totally wrong this could be like a dangerous epidemic that's gonna kill tens of millions or hundreds of millions of people

that could happen so far it doesn't actually look that way you know compared to the flu it seems more virulent but there's the matter of undocumented cases you know if you compare people who actually go to the hospital then flu is more lethal well that are accurate I don't know so much conspiracy theory is just how do you validate you know the cause of an illness and just attributed as you know like the Koch postulate to a single you know disease yeah that's a whole other

thing I mean we can go there but I just want to finish this thought which is simply that that another similarity between terrorism as the reason to suspend certain rights and freedoms and coronavirus the similarities that in the end neither of them to actually turn out to be that serious you know like after 9/11 it didn't take that long before people stopped being terrified of terrorism didn't really believe it anymore didn't believe that there was much of a threat and I wonder if that's gonna happen

with these infectious diseases which you know when we get warned again and again and again like remember with terrorism there was the Red Alert and the Amber Alert you know we're on Amber Alert you know maybe at the beginning people were like oh my god Amber Alert oh no but after Amber Alert had been going on for a few years people didn't actually believe it and one got the impression that the authorities didn't believe it either now right now we're kind of in the 911 aftermath

like this stage of the infectious disease terror alert where people are scared not quite as scared as the press is but you know people are concerned like it's working you know kind of like 9/11 was working to terrify people and again like we could go into various theories of 9/11 and these competing narratives but it's kind of working but I just wonder you know I I think fundamentally the age of infectious disease is over and that humanity faces totally different challenges and we face in the

18th and 19th century but but you know as it plays out and it turns out not to confirm the alarms and some of the alarms are alarming but it plays out it doesn't confirm those or people are gonna become inured to this you know is it really gonna work in other words from the perspective of those who would like to well I would just I loved where you're going with this because I think you're you're probably worried about a transition to an age where you know

infection isn't the primary concern or there's more complexity there but I would say that what I feel is happening in the sort of movement of historical moments to this moment is that we had a nascent or larval sort of like narrative fascism in place with scientism leading to medical monotheism and so the concept is that there's only one true you know thing medically speaking based on only one view of the body actually and it naturally leads to you know rendering any opposition to that you know

heretical and there's usually an inquisition that follows and we're already seeing that in my space because in quote natural medicine which is kind of an absurd you know sort of like redundancy you know to me you know that there's there's something really like nuke wacky weird medicine called taking petrochemical derivatives and patenting them and then introducing them into the body and causing side effects therapeutic actions in a certain context that's that's primarily xenobiotic medicine and that's the default now but natural medicine is obviously hundreds of

thousands of years old anyway so I feel like what we're seeing in terms of this present operation unfolding already latent within the way that we already worshiped the scriptures of the Holy Church of what is essentially eminence based and not evidence-based medicine so you go to the C's website they pronounced its truth by Proclamation vaccines are safe and effective there's no reference to the Cochrane Collaboration which is relatively independent although not any longer because they accepted money from the Gates Foundation and now things have imploded

when their founders left but the reality is before that they were saying Cochrane Database reviews on say flu vaccines there's no evidence at all showing them safe and effective unequivocally for children for adults for elderly for those who work with the elderly and yet that was health policy is you have to get it and anyone who questions it is a quack is dangerous and should probably be put in jail or their kids taken from them that's like literally the narrative that's been spun over the past

few years so I don't I'm not that surprised by what's going on but it is disturbing to see them literally lock down travel the markets imploding you know it's it's this is a real agenda we're seeing unfold before eyes but it's been in the works I think for decades honestly yeah I don't know I'm not convinced that it's a conscious agenda I think that that yeah I mean if you want to make it a conscious for me what's to make it a conscious agenda I have

to locate the consciousness outside of actual human beings on in the realm of myth or collective consciousness or beings that are composed like the yeah the collective the collective psyche beings that are composed of human beings and that operate on am worth you level and so that in in that sense to you know fix the blame or the conspiracy on reptilian overlords you know extraterrestrials or demonic powers is kind of in a way it's it is aligned with what I think you know that what's happening

isn't in literal objective 3d reality as we know it whereas we've conceived it and this gets you know into some down some really mysterious rabbit holes but it liberates me and my thinking because I don't I don't any longer have to decide which of these narratives is objectively true and I can hold them separately so Stella today you know I was talking about this YouTube video where the lady is claiming that it's that the corona virus is a cover story for illness caused by the 5g

rollout yeah and so you know there's these data points you know that you know supposedly a big 5g tower was put in Wuhan and China and it's in all the places where the virus has been breaking out that's where 5g has been implemented in like this whole narrative and my skeptical mind was like really well you know isn't Shanghai even more advanced in 5g than Wuhan why didn't it break out there and I thought Moscow was rolling out five gee why didn't it break out there

and you know I had all these objections in my mind but I don't know does anybody whose research this really know the state of 5g rollout in Shanghai I think yeah who know like I don't know you know so here's a narrative you know and then there's the then there's these other narratives and the way I hold them as I and then the standard narrative to and minor variations on the standard narrative so I I liked hold them and see who I become as I inhabit

those narratives and how I see the world do I feel helpless do I feel activated do I feel defeated do i feel despair what view of human nature does it induce in me to hold these different narratives you remind me of Walt Whitman and leaves the grass where he says I contain multitudes you know sort of a orientation to experience a being so being human and whatever you want to call it which is one of the modes that you're talking about where we can potentially inhabit

all these different narratives and feel them I really appreciate that because there is always latent within each thought form an entire dimension a whole world of feeling and some of them are just sort of like in the basement you know pulling the strings but you know I like what you're talking about it's kind of phenomenological yeah for you though it gets not just like this philosophical question because you were your career your business or Enterprise has been affected by censorship right so it's not theoretical right

but it don't prefer the description of my focus in terms of business terms because the reality is I live in you know like everyone else this country have children and I got into you know my advocacy around health rights of vaccines cuz I had children you know I still have children I'm in Florida there's a bill right now that would basically force them to be vaccinated and everyone else in this state if it goes through or we take them out of school and then we're home

schoolers and before you know it like pants ed in California it's like a breeding ground of infection too you know being an alternative school like a Waldorf or homeschooler I mean this is literally pogrom level stuff we're seeing and and and the rhetoric so you know this Emmy but yes my platform has been profoundly attempted at censorship and last year I mean I was basically kicked off mailchimp which sounds like a ridiculous platform but it's enterprise it's based in Atlanta Georgia and they're CDC foundation partners

so they're legally as I understand acquired to forbid any communication on their platform which is quote anti vaccine which in and that means just questions vaccines or post a jam a study that indicates there could be some harm or it violates that narrative another thing I just want to say real quick is that this concept of like one narrative that that lens runs all narratives I mean this is what we're talking about with scientism you know that there is just one true view that's what I

love about what you just said is that you know as a microcosm if you're able to hold multiple perspectives and and not only just tolerate them but feel them out and see who you are I want to know more about that honestly does that come from when did you come to that is it in a book of yours I mean I kind of touch on it in various books and some essays and maybe in the metaphysics course a little bit but usually I only go deep

into that territory in small groups or maybe I just haven't fully developed it yet it's really hard for the mind the modern mind to grasp excuse me it's hard for the modern mind to grasp that reality isn't an objective thing outside of ourselves that can be verified I can be that can be verified or rejected through an impartial process of matching theories to evidence like you know the reality is it's out there you know and I can believe one thing and you can believe another thing

but only one of us is right or none of us is right but we can't both be right if we're in contradiction it can't be correct that vaccines are the greatest medical innovation that has saved millions of people and protects us from these scary infectious diseases at the same time that it's true that that they are ineffective dangerous and take the credit for the decline of infectious diseases that should be attributed to other causes like public hygiene or the decline in variants of viruses as they

co-evolve with human beings or something like that right there's these there's you know which ones right they can't both be right they're totally contradictory like the modern mind wants to figure out which one is right because then I know what to do well that's ancient to writers Aristotelian logic a cannot be not a and when was it or while talking a little bit about holding these contradictory realities simultaneously and sort of doublethink although he meant it in a very shadowy way that that's what we're required

to believe that you know these absurdities like love is love is hate war is peace you know stuff like that yeah yeah this is related to doublethink boy I have to really think about that one now too to go into that well in the case of coroner virus that we're kind of experiencing I think we're we're agreeing that on some level it is vapour it's a common cold virus that they're trying to they I know this is already probably triggering trying to foam it into something

that looks like the next play and you know for reasons that appeared to be to control people and by the way it was Foucault that talks a lot about file politics which i think is a better explanation for pharma as a transnational meta you know sort of society because of what is it hundreds of thousands of people employed by them versus profit motive I mean that's so old-school you know like oh they're just making a killing because of profit and it's about it's not about that

anymore it's really more about control and that's what I'm really most concerned okay so I think that there's another thing I said in that essay um I think I just in one sentence but maybe I want to unfold it a little bit right now in a way in a subtle on a subtle level the the narrative that this is a deliberate plot serving an agenda like a deliberate plan that and you said like it you didn't say that you know that it is but you said

if it's not boy they're sure making doing a good job of making it look like it as a conspiracy with that whatever that was 2:01 what was that n2o one event to a-1 yeah but there's something comforting just as there's something comforting in facing a threat that we can identify and kill there's also something comforting in seeing this as a conspiracy or a conscious plan because it because then there's something that we can fight and kill generation yeah yeah here's something we can dominate here's something

we can resist here is a bad thing and the solution to the problem is to dominate or destroy or defeat the bad thing which is the same mindset as the standard medical pathogenic model of disease there's a bad thing so that makes me a little suspicious of this narrative that they've been brewing this and now they're gonna unveil it because they want to control us like what if it's just happening because conditions are right for it just like a virus takes over your body because conditions

are right for it this is one of the my understandings of flus and colds they're actually kind of doing you a service because yeah you're familiar with this but maybe some of our listeners are you know the idea that that you are eating food that's not good for you maybe sugar you're building up these you know toxic waste products and eventually like the virus comes in and cleans them up and burns them off with a fever and makes you discharge huge amounts of mucus you know

which which help excrete these you know and you're sweating and like right after yeah I mean I can give you biomedical validation for that so I'm not just making it up you of the force so extending that metaphorically to our society maybe we have a terrain we have a physiological condition like in the social physiology that makes us really susceptible to a hysteria like the kind that we have right now or to to the meme of infectious disease and if that's the case we don't have

to posit a deliberate plan a deliberate totalitarian agenda which in a way is like even more scary because at least if there's a deliberate agenda we know what to do we can expose those [ __ ] you know we can take them down but just as we can kill the germ but if it's not that then what do we do like what if it's just happening well this is such a great point because it's like a xenophobia and we're self quarantine so it's the ultimate you

know sort of that you're pointing out it's not so clear and yet were in a way administering it to ourselves and stocking up and we're ready to cough and we're wearing masks like you know in the Middle Ages they have this big long disgusting horrific beat mess now we're gonna protect the doctors from bubonic plague and it's just we it's sort of a reiteration of that same theater at this point because the masks don't even work they've already validated they don't yeah and do the biocides

work that they're spraying everywhere oh yeah right they work to cause profound dysbiosis things like viruses are pretty hard to kill thank you right we're self because here's the thing there's a whole new view of what a virus is which is they are basically a byproduct of hijacked exosome production so cells produce these nanoparticles they just happen to be the same exact diameter as viruses they're they have these little same lipid surfaces or like these little balls and they containing actual viral DNA in them that's

one of the explanations for what HIV is it's just I jacked exosome within a cell so it doesn't mean that you can't send a bad text message to someone like there was a friend I had in California no sorry it was Hawaii they got this text message that there were intercontinental ballistic missiles being they were gonna land in 30 minutes and her whole whole whole family freaked out everyone the country freaked out and then it would turned out to be completely a glitch that's what these

sort of and these and exosomes that are hijacked can do to other cells is freak them out but it doesn't mean they're intrinsically bad they're there to send vitally important genetic information horizontally in real time which confers profound adaptability to the species because the old view was it took two hundred thousand years or more to change nuclear right so this idea of the the separate genetic self that's you know locked into the nuclear DNA that's this is totally obsolete we know that horizontal gene transfer is

happening all the time cells bacteria using viruses using you write about micro micro RNA all these exosomes like like bacteria like actually joining together and having bacterial sex in a way like exchanging genes introns you know X I mean obviously like yeah so so the and this isn't just you know some random thing this is part of how life works how life communicates which with each other how life forms a cohesive whole so one thing that happens as we Institute these policies of insulation and anti

septic isolation and control is that and and these spraying campaigns and I don't know for me even like excessive hand-washing and all that like we're interfering with this communal sharing of life and and you know you spoke about the microbiome and and dysbiosis like were maybe inadvertently worsening the ground conditions that would make us susceptible to infectious disease but I think more to the point make us susceptible to those diseases that we can't control with control you know the the autoimmune diseases allergies things like that

that there's no enemy to fight because it's the body turning against itself well in the reality is that the new biology has shown us that there is something even called natural autoimmunity which is a default layer of antibodies that are formed against self structures some of which actually help to activate nuclear programs so it's almost a different way to understand what these auto antibodies do some of which are to basically extend our genetic capabilities several orders of magnitude higher in complexity than would otherwise be the

case so so much of what we thought was pathology is actually not and that's you know more true than ever when it comes to viruses the discovery of the vairam a lot of the work done at nih actually has shown that you know it's like the hygiene hypothesis without certain basic childhood viral infections exposures such as chicken pox measles the the immunological self tolerance doesn't develop it actually has to happen that we go through a period of being quote challenged otherwise the immune system blows back

on itself so called adaptive humoral immunity th2 is already set ready to deal with these defenses and if I'm sorry challenges if they're not present then that immune system tends to blow back on itself so it's really interesting the absence of quote infection may lead to cancer cardiovascular disease autoimmunity so didn't I read somewhere that dumb that camera where I read this that when people get the measles they like they like makes cancer go away or something like that yeah well there's actually studies that you

can look at that they literally inject measles into tumors and they're called uncle lytic viruses they literally cause certain tumors to die so you know the reality is that viruses are essential for immunological homeostasis self tolerance maturation and you know the picture you're destroying life there's it's just we that's what we are we're part virus and it's we just got in in fact what is eight percent of our protein coding genome is actually retro viral in origin you know the scariest of all term is a

retro viral and then even the way you said like with you know all these retro pose owns and all these little parts of the genome constant jumping around they're basically like viruses so our very genome functions in a very far away so you're basically saying that that the worldview that sees the world as full of enemies is really misleading it's yeah it serves primarily a political function and it has almost no evidence to support it any longer thanks to again the discovery of them microbiome thanks

to the first draft of the human genome project being completed in 2005 where essentially we went to the post genomic era and realized that environmental exposures nutrition all these things are the primary determinants our health and wellness and our genetic fitness it's not precoded from distant ancestors and just automatically to do this and that yeah I appreciated the you know you mentioned some of this in your book which you know I'm kind of familiar with most of this material as I said in our last conversation

which was ruined by external forces one of the it's and I'm gonna guess I'm like totally shifting tracks here but one of the things I really enjoyed was the discussion of nuclear chemistry transmutation of elements nuclear chemistry for those listening means as opposed to normal chemistry where the no elements change into other elements and it's just a matter of exchanging or sharing electrons or or you know ionic and covalent bonds and things like that nuclear chemistry involves transmutation of elements like the nucleus of the atom

is changing losing protons or neutrons or gaining them changing to other elements and this is not supposed to happen outside of you know stars and hydrogen bombs and clear reactors so one of the things that you trace in your book is this entire lineage of scientists who have done this research and proposed that it actually is happening inside of cells inside of biological systems now I've been a little bit aware of one of these researchers Louis Chiron but apparently it's part of a whole tradition and

I guess to segue from our last topic into this just that um you know we're we're like collectively taking step by step into territory that was considered not even real like you know the idea that that evolution can happen through horizontal transfer of genetic information and not only through random mutation like that was considered that was heresy only twenty years ago that was considered like Lamarckism you know you can't acquire some gen some characteristic and pass it down and and and so here you know and

now it's become more and more accepted the idea of a viral I mean the research you cite on your website is it's coming from you know standard journals like that it's not just like this alternative stuff in fact none of it is like everything on your website is coming from a peer-reviewed journal so this is relatively well-established territory but one thing I appreciate about your book is that you're taking a step into more into you know far the farther reaches of the new Sciences so thank

you for doing that and do you want to say anything about yeah Wow well it's part of I love your language of going from the old to the new story you know in biology like you said this concept that you know there's this Wiseman barrier where you can't transfer genetic information from the nucleus right beyond messenger RNA and then protein that was overturned in ways with the discovery of reverse transcriptase I would say you know the retrovirus inserts you know information directly back now 71 but

only a few years ago a study came out showing that somatic cells transfer micro RNAs which actually are master regulators of our entire genome - germline cells just model which then gets carried on into the progeny so that also is clearly Lamarckian and not that surprising because Darwin was a Lamarckian actually so it's like ah to me yep it wasn't really a Darwinist he was actually very humble right brilliant genius yeah it's like Jesus really not being a modern-day Christian Buddhist so anyway so yes we're

at this amazing turning of the ages I love some of the kolender ik so the New Age if you will but I do feel like we went through the Kali Yuga in 2000 there's like this event horizon where you see just this grand grand flowering of new concepts and ideas that actually better match what was always there it's like in you know Zen you always already are enlightened there's it's not new we are quantum biology right now our bodies are operating at a quantum scale as

well as a macro scale but what you point out with Kevin's work is that several hundred year history of these student natural ists observing things like in Brittany where the chickens are laying all these calcium-rich eggs they can't figure out where the calcium is coming from so they observe that it's pecking this silica rich mica and apparently transforming it into calcium and through some unknown process right because as far as we understand kamancheh Li you need very high temperatures and high pressures to turn elements into

one another but what's so interesting is that you have the work of Fleischmann and pons right when it comes to cold fusion and of course they didn't follow protocol and announced it to the media before the scientists could basically shut them up and kick them out of their take out they got a little excited about it yeah they were pretty excited because but if you go back and you look at the studies and you see their reproducibility throughout the world it's really amazing there's a whole

low energy nuclear transformation community that has been fighting against the sort of Church of scientism around or you know conventional physicists and chemists around this not being possible even though it's probably happening at any given moment in any living system you know on the planet and so I can't I'm obviously not a nuclear chemist and I'm shocked that there isn't more discussion about this but I can tell you that there's some very clever Russian physicists that seem to have figured out a mechanism right by which

these protons and neutrons are being changed through wet and warm systems and there's a whole new burgeoning discipline of quantum biology that's doing the same thing which is trying to understand how quantum processes are operating to make our bodies do things like smell you know make it possible for Robins to circumnavigate the world you know quantum photons and even all these different processes like light harvesting complexes in plants apparently must somehow take into account you know a relatively large amount of variables through quantum processing to

be so efficient so there's a lot going on here but fundamentally what I find most fascinating is something like an air plant that is like growing on a copper wire I don't think we necessarily have to stretch the imagination to observe the things around us and observe for example in the mitochondria that there's a inner mitochondrial membrane electric field strength of 30 million volts per meter which is equivalent to a lightning bolt discharge that's that's how intense that is the cytosol only recently was found to

have 15 million volts per meter so where is that energy coming from I think that the best obvious answer is from the quantum vacuum because that is where you get energy and you know sometimes people will say well that's impossible you can't get something from nothing well there's billions of adherents to the big bang theory which is that you get a very big something out of a very small nothing you know I think that we're on the precipice of this sort of conversation being legitimized I'm

hoping that the actual scientific community you know takes takes this you know further for now I'm just happy to report on some very interesting things that seem to be out there ready yeah yeah I wish they were were more like scientifically literate reporting on some of these things you know because a lot of them are they haven't really been collated into a form digestible to educated laypeople like there are these papers out there you know there's these Russian physicists here and these and and their job

isn't to popularize it you know their job is to do the research so I think pamphlets and yeah we're the say orgies you know that this is like I really um I appreciated the those parts of your book that were a bit more speculative just fascinating you know to and even though like so speculative like one of the things you mentioned is cavitation bubbles that generate you know star like temperatures and accelerate protons to the relativistic speeds necessary for a nuclear fusion to happen or or

to knock loose nucleons you know like this kind of stuff it's like okay maybe but you can you know like it's not like you're you were proving or that it's necessarily even been proven that this is happening there are these experiments that give us reason to think that it could be happening and for me that's kind of enough to at least know that if I'm following these trails it's not like totally at odds with reality you know with with scientific reality like it's not like that

I refuse to believe that reality is divided in two parts one of which is scientific verifiable measurable quantitative and the other is forever beyond the bounds of those ways of knowing I'd like to see a reunion of reality that that heals the modern dualism has caused so much damage so I have a question for you that I wanted to ask I've been wanting to ask you know so you have this transmutation of elements you have chickens in one of these experiments you know they measured all

of the calcium they incinerated the chickens after words and put them through a cyclo to cyclin yeah whatever that was called um a spectrometer you know they measured all of the calcium after and before and there's and and there's more where did the extra calcium come from and it corresponds exactly to the amount of silica that silicon that was lost and like they have these things so the point being and you give lots of other examples of ways that you know that maybe cells can produce

boron or whatever okay so let's let's say yeah the body can manufacture everything it needs even the elements that might be missing from the diet at the same time you're publishing articles about how important it is to get your boron or to get your this or to get your that from the foods that we eat and the deleterious effects of of eating food that has you know through industrial farming has been deprived of its nutrients so my question is well what does it matter why can't

we just make our own and this anomalous energy energy production you know you're saying like the electric field strength of a mitochondrion or a cell you can't explain like there's no way that ATP is going to produce that much energy you know like the sugars that the cells are using to make energy no way Gerald [ __ ] office also did this math you know he he critiqued way back in a book on the cell he critiqued the pumps and channels model of cellular physiology and

by one thing that he did is he added it all up like all of these atp-dependent pumps for all of these metabolic processes he's like really like that's an awful lot of ATP let's see let's do the math you know and there's there's nowhere near enough okay so we can get energy that's not from food we can get the minerals to elements that's not from food why do we have to eat food in the first place what does it matter what our diet is why what

what has to happen for these capacities to really be unlocked yeah great question I mean absolutely I think in an ideal world with an ideal body I think a number of these capabilities are being manifested in a way that's much clearer than in the modern world so I do believe yes that there are because the animals starve to death you know animals starve to death they can be malnourished plants can be now malnourished if this actually works then please explain it well I think that's what

is so interesting to me is that the anomalies that do exist I mean you have an entire global community of so-called breatharianism x' breatharianism followers and there's an interesting documentary that i recently watched with kelly it's I think called let there be light and it commenced these individuals it's very convincing and Jerry Pollock was the one who first told me about this Indian man who is believed to have not eat or drink you don't eat nor drink drink anything for something like 70 years he was

in a hospital for almost two weeks a bizarre validated that he didn't so yes so if one human can do it theoretically all humans can I'm very interested in that you know as sort of a case study but I don't think many of us today are in optimal health nor fitness and I imagine that it's not available to all of us at the same degree but it was Thomas Bearden who wrote about this about how you know you see these examples of a Shaolin master like

running up a wall and just sticking there it's almost like one of these geckos with their Kasmir plate-like feet you know harvesting the quantum vacuum and his point was that everyone has this energy flowing through them like with the mitochondria on example multiplying 30 million volts of potential energy at times trillion yet trillions of cells came and do the math but that masters learned to direct that energy transduce it into this dimension and I think there's something to that you know so I don't have to

eat my do I have to eat my Brazil nuts or don't I yeah be given the toxic an exposure you know the Anthropocene not to mention none native EMF I mean this is unprecedented what we're experiencing I imagine we need all the support we can to transform light energy information into programmable matter it's probably a difficult feat I believe the mitochondria are doing it you know in the book I referenced the army scientist Samuel gold finds work supposedly proving that mitochondria function like cyclotron particle accelerators

transforming light into matter that's fascinating so but you know outside of optimal conditions I'm not so sure or intention maybe it does have something to intention yeah because like you know polar bears can get malnourished you know orcas can get malnourished they can get like so so it's not necessarily that we've fallen from a state where we can do that because in the animal world if you know animals don't eat they starve so they're not producing all of their energy from breath or from light so

there's something there's a mystery here because you know I could take those data points and say so therefore the breatharians are all frauds and so on and so forth I don't believe that either but I'm I guess I haven't come to a comprehensive narrative that holds all of these data points well I think the one I like most came from root of haschke and he said that he there's two streams of nutrition there's an earthly one and a cosmic one I believe the cosmic one he's

referring to is was called ether you know you could call it the quantum vacuum zero-point energy he told you shakti prana chi I think that is accessible but it takes a certain type of discipline and tension mastery to to extract it I don't personally feel like I have that other than what's available to me intuitively but you're a martial artist so no not really I've seen some videos of you doing some pretty intense stuff what videos would be cool I mean for a while I was

doing this Qigong practice with uh it's like very hard practice hard as an external that's striking myself with objects and things which I loved actually and the only reason I'm not doing it now as I moved away from where my teacher was but um it wasn't for martial arts yeah yeah anyone who's been on a plant medicine journey and people tell you that the world is primarily energy usually not physical stuff so that's that's a type of confirmation that not everyone will have in this life

but for those who have experienced it it seems like a more reasonable explanation of what's really there yes I want to see um yeah we're probably getting close to the end of our time but I wanted to say something - name something that probably actually applies to the people who would have already stopped listening in the consternation but I'll say it anyway just to name how polarizing many of the topics that we've been speaking about are especially the vaccine topic we're and then to follow that

with these with this conversation about nuclear transmutation and breatharianism and stuff it offers the opportunity for somebody to easily dismiss as cuckoo nonsense pretty much everything that you're saying you know with with the device of well he believes in so and so where he's an anti-vaxxer or and to lump anti-vaxxer together with believer and breatharianism and nuclear transmutation and sounds like you're denying the theory of evolution and like to construe things in that way to make you look like this idiot and that I see as

a bigger problem like that tendency to reduce and write off other people which is really to dehumanize them and to make them into an enemy to group them into the category of bad that is a bigger problem than anything else we've been talking about it's a bigger problem than vaccines it's a bigger problem than coronavirus hysteria it's a bigger problem at any of these things because like we could be wrong about our opinions how would we know if we were wrong how would and if you

disagree with what Sayer has been saying audience if you disagree with what sayers been saying about vaccines or whatever how do you know that you're right if if you use the device of writing off as idiots or charlatans those who hold an opposing view or as unscientific or as whatever deprecating idea would work epithet that you deploy toward the people um if they're right how would you ever know that when you won't even look deeply at what they're saying because you already know that it's [

__ ] like and and to universalize this question I'm sure that some of my opinions are wrong about something in the world how will I ever know that and how will the Shiites and the Sunnis ever come to peace when they just each know that the other side is you know following the ideology of Satan or whatever they think and how will were the Christians and the Muslims you know are the Hindus and the Muslims and were the Jews and the Palestinians or or the factors

and the anti-vaxxers or the pro-choice in the pro-life or like just take any of these polarizing issues whether it's in medicine or outside of it what's it gonna take for us ever to come into unity it's gonna take a different approach to knowledge than trying to decide who's good and who's bad and so I want to invite anyone listening if you've listened if you've if you're like hold to mainstream views about vaccines for example and you've listened this far I want to congratulate you it is

no small thing to hold a listening when something that triggering comes up like if you're capable of doing that already even just to to stay in the room that reveals a certain cultivation that that you've had and because honestly you know I have my opinions I haven't actually revealed them in this conversation what I think about vaccines you could probably guess but you know I have my opinions and some of them might be right someone might be wrong the truth might be more mysterious than any

of us have any idea of and so for me this is like the meta issue that underlies all other issues the issue of polarization and and what needs to be sacrificed to discover truth if I could just add Charles that what I love about your work I mean it's sort of encapsulated for me in the phrase which I actually made part of my wedding vows which is the more beautiful world or heart knew is possible though make it more beautiful world our hearts know as possible

yeah because it's it's really to be fundamentally true that when we engage in in conversation where there is another where someone is either right or wrong if there's a this important layer I engage in it all day long but when it comes to the dehumanization part I have to catch myself because there is a day that emerges and I start to find myself getting upset and I feel like they're trying to hurt me or someone I love but fundamentally we can all agree that it comes

from a place of being afraid that something we love and care about will be taking away and what I want to do what I think you you're trying to do is facilitate an experience of openness where we can really fall back in in love with something it could be anything but something could be a pet it could be food it could be the world hopefully certain aspects because without that direct experience of something beautiful you know I don't know that there's a there's a whole honestly

here to be right I mean I would have read this book if that were the case I know there's gonna be plenty of people that be jumping all over me for just referencing some odd phenomenon but I'm so happy I did because it's what I get excited about like I believe in a future where we can extract energy from water and create elements from water and I think that the research by mark LeClair and then technology specialist is super compelling so if I've just introduced that

possibility into the discussion and then people can jump on that and just refute it all day I'm happy because I do think that we are really close to extremely beautiful vision emerging and I think you're really one of the fundamental pollinators of this vision I would like to play some role and I hope others listening will too maybe you could um give us a list of you know maybe between five and ten links to some of the most fascinating out there research it's kind of a

big asks I know it takes time to find like the gem but a couple that you just mentioned I'm really interested in nettle he likes the Marc Leclerc or more Lockheed Martin technologists as a company called Nana's fire and his presentations on water cavitation and everything he discovered regarding inducing stellar nucleosynthesis like a vent in his glad preceded by micro black hole formation that caused radiation poisoning in him and it's a fascinating story his his YouTube videos are incredible so he just like just send me

some things and I'll put it in the description all right cool thing that gets me excited and of course Foster Kimberly Campbell with five to probably very controversial I'm interested to see what they do with this release because they're also really into getting so-called you know free energy or zero-point energy out and it could be completely a hoax but I mean I would hope that there's some truth to it oh man I have like a whole thing about free energy again it's not the right question

isn't whether it's objectively authentic or not it's that's that is a question you can ask and there's I'm aware of you know some of these realms of exploration but there's a deeper question that I would love to explore with you sometime but I don't want to it takes like really like 15 minutes to really lay it out love to hear it the only other thing would regenerate project comm is where I'm gonna be reporting on things like bioremediation of radionuclides through back for example or transforming

plastic with oyster mushrooms like spam it like I want to find solutions that are evidence-based validated that hopefully will help the world you know did you read about the fungi that are growing like inside the Chernobyl reactor yes yes mentioned in my book cuz melanin is such an important thing I think Chris know about sure right yeah so um yeah thank you I I think I just want to put in one more little thing about the polarization topic just that I again like I said I

have my opinions and sure I would like people to agree with my opinions I think the world would be better if everybody agreed that the war on terror should end or that's you know holistic medicine should be funded or whatever but more important than that I would like us to become less identified with being right because in these polarized discussions which ever one of us is right which could be you and not me what's it gonna take for the person who's holding on to a damaging

illusion to let go of that what's it going to take for the truth to come out for us to embrace the truth what do we have to let go of yeah I know I just wished it I wish that we would take up that question and I guess I have some answers to that question but I want to put it in this conversation right now just because so much of what you've talked about sarah is super controversial and triggers those reactions of dismissing dehumanising which are

leveled at you all the time you know if you look you if you look you up on Wikipedia or something you know it's gonna say all kinds of bad things about you so if and just circle back like that explanation for why Sayer disagrees with what it's so obviously true well he must be some version of bad that's the same mindset as we were talking about with the war on germs the war on terror the war on the conspiracy Illuminati like all that is part of

the same mentality and fundamentally the transition the initiation that humanity is going through right now is in two piece it is in all dimensions letting go of the war mentality which says improvement and progress and well-being comes through conquest conquest of the terrorists the enemy the germ the controller's conquest of Sayre G intellectually vanquishing him writing him off getting rid of the bad people yeah that's what we need to heal right now all right so we'll put your uh links and stuff on the description and

I don't know if you're gonna use this conversation for your own nefarious purposes but you're certainly welcome to yeah thanks so much pleasure yeah okay I'm just stop recording